Ralph Ring and Otis Carr

_____________________________

Aquamarine Dreams:
Ralph Ring and Otis T. Carr
Las Vegas, August 2006

Ralph Ring is a brilliant innovative technician who as a young man in the

late 1950s and early 1960s worked closely with Otis T. Carr. With the aid of
his small team, Carr, who was himself a protegé of the great inventor
Nikola Tesla, built a number of flying disks, which worked.... prior to their
experimentation being forcibly terminated by government agents.

In a dramatic experiment, Ring co-piloted a 45 foot disk a distance of ten

miles, arriving at their destination instantaneously. Ring, now aged 71,
tells his story –the first time it has been reported.

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 download .mp3 audio Click here

stream (YouTube video) Click here

transcript Click here

__________________________

-- "You must always work with Mother Nature. Force is never necessary. The laws of the physical universe are
really very simple."
• Ralph Ring, interviewed by Kerry Cassidy, August 2006

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 -- "You are assuming that ET crafts are made with our technology... Many years ago, we made that same mistake
and it took us several years to correct the mistake and start fresh from the drawing board. Their technology is
nothing similar to ours... We started from scratch and learned their principles of dynamics, physics, etc... The ET
craft was manufactured using ET technology. This craft was built many years before we developed flight. They used
a different physics principle that we still don't fully understand... I've worked on this project for 12 years and I
sometimes call myself dumb because I try to compare the craft with our technology. Doing that is dumb, as all who
have worked on the craft over the years have come to understand."
• Los Alamos National Laboratories physicist, quoted in Exempt from Disclosure, by Robert Collins

-- "The pilots... knew they were going very fast, but it was so fast that they saw things stand still in time... At first
our pilots could not interface with the craft. The Alien Life Form corrected the problem with three fingers on the
globe panel. Then the wave formed and the craft began to cooperate and generate lift..."
• James Jesus Angleton (CIA), quoted in Exempt from Disclosure, by Robert Collins

-- "The vehicle was simply an extension of their own bodies because it was tied into their neurological systems…"
• Col. Philip J. Corso, The Day After Roswell

-- "My flying machine will have neither wings nor propellers. You might see it on the ground and you would never
guess that it was a flying machine. Yet it will be able to move at will through the air in any direction with perfect
safety."
• Nikola Tesla, interviewed in The New York Herald Tribune, October 15, 1911

Archived material recently discovered by Ralph Ring:

-- Click here to download a complete unpublished book by Otis T. Carr, written in 1952, entitled DIMENSIONS
OF MYSTERY. The typewritten manuscript is an 83 page PDF (23 Mb).

Nine 1958 Long John Nebel radio shows featuring Otis T. Carr and/or his work. The quality is poor, but the
content is of historical interest. Long John Nebel had a wide audience, covered all aspects of the unusual and
paranormal, and was the Art Bell of his day. (To download, PC users right-click and then select Save As; Mac
users option-click.)

-- Click here for Margaret Storm on her new book Return of the Dove, featuring Otis Carr, date unknown (Part
1)
-- Click here for Margaret Storm on her new book Return of the Dove, featuring Otis Carr, date unknown (Part
2)
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 -- Click here for Otis Carr, 19 April 1958 (Part 1)
-- Click here for Otis Carr, 19 April 1958 (Part 2)

-- Click here for Margaret Storm and Otis Carr, 11 July 1958 (Part 1)
-- Click here for Margaret Storm and Otis Carr, 11 July 1958 (Part 2)

-- Click here for Otis Carr, 15 November 1958 (Part 1)

-- Click here for Otis Carr, 15 November 1958 (Part 2)
-- Click here for Otis Carr, 15 November 1958 (Part 3)

Project Camelot is privileged to have been introduced to Ralph Ring, a gifted intuitive technician who in the late
1950s and early 1960s worked closely with Otis T. Carr, a protegé of the great inventor Nikola Tesla. Prior to meeting
Carr, Ralph had helped the famous French oceanographer Jacques Cousteau develop the aqualung, and had then
spent a period working with a government-funded research organization called Advanced Kinetics.

Bill Ryan talked with Ralph for over twelve hours on their first meeting, in March 2006. He was genial, charismatic,
gentle, compelling, and sprightly for his 71 years. The story he told was captivating.

In essence, the account is as follows. Carr and a small group of engineers and technicians, one of
whom was Ralph, built a flying disk, powered by rotating electromagnets in conjunction with a
number of small, ingenious capacitor-like devices called "Utrons". A number of prototypes were
built, ranging in size from experimental models a few feet across to a passenger-carrying craft
which was fully 45 feet in diameter. The smaller disks flew successfully – one even disappeared
completely and was permanently lost – and Ralph himself testifies to having co-piloted, with two
Ralph Ring in 1984 others, the large craft a distance of some ten miles, traversing this distance instantaneously.

Carr was seriously intent on taking his craft to the moon. However, two weeks after Ralph's dramatic experience,
their laboratory was forcibly shut down by government agents and all files and documentation were confiscated. The
group was forced to disband, and the project was never completed. Dismayed and frustrated, Ralph later bought
some land in Arizona where he built a futuristic disk-shaped home which he said was astonishingly energy-efficient
and, he later realized, decades ahead of its time.

Carr's work has been recorded in several places, but the details are relatively scant. One highly respected physicist,
researching alternative energy systems with the backing of a substantial organization, told Bill Ryan that he "had

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 "...the metal turned to never investigated Otis Carr because his
Jell-o. You could push claims just seemed too outlandish." But few
your finger right into it. researchers are aware that one of the team
It ceased to be solid. It
of Carr's engineers is still alive. Project
turned into another
form of matter, which Camelot is proud to tell Ralph Ring's story,
was as if it was not and will be releasing a video interview with
entirely here in this him within the next few weeks.
reality."
When recalling the heady events of the late
1950s working day and night with Carr, Ring again and again
stressed that the key was working with nature. "Resonance", he
would emphasize repeatedly. "You have to work with nature, not
against her." He described how when the model disks were
powered up and reached a particular rotational speed, "...the
metal turned to Jell-o. You could push your finger right into it. It
ceased to be solid. It turned into another form of matter, which
was as if it was not entirely here in this reality. That's the only way I can attempt to describe it. It was uncanny, one
of the weirdest sensations I've ever felt."

What was it like working with Carr? "He was an unquestioned

genius. Tesla had recognized his quality immediately and had
taught him everything he knew. He was inspired, and – like Tesla
– seemed to know exactly what to do to get something to work.
He was a private man and was also very metaphysical in his
thinking. I think the fact that he was not formally trained in
physics helped him. He was not constrained by any preconceived
ideas. As crazy as it sounds now, he was determined to fly to the
moon and really believed it could be done. I believed it. We all
did."

Did the craft fly? "Fly is not the right word. It "...I was completely
traversed distance. It seemed to take no astonished when we
time. I was with two other engineers when realized that we had
returned with samples
we piloted the 45' craft about ten miles. I
of rocks and plants
thought it hadn't moved – I thought it had from our destination. It
failed. I was completely astonished when we was a dramatic

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 realized that we had returned with samples of rocks and plants from our destination. It was a success. It was more
dramatic success. It was more like a kind of teleportation. like a kind of
teleportation."

"What's more, time was distorted somehow. We felt we were in the craft about fifteen or twenty minutes. We were
told afterwards that we'd been carefully timed as having been in the craft no longer than three or four minutes. I still
have no complete idea how it worked. We just built it exactly according to Carr's instructions. Everything had to be
perfect... it all had to be just so, or it he said it would not work: a kind of symbiotic state between man and machine.

"The Utron was the key to it all. Carr said it accumulated energy because of its shape, and focused it, and also
responded to our conscious intentions. When we operated the machine, we didn't work any controls. We went into a
kind of meditative state and all three of us focused our intentions on the effect we wanted to achieve. It sounds
ridiculous, I know. But that's what we did, and that's what worked. Carr had tapped into some principle which is not
understood, in which consciousness melds with engineering to create an effect. You can't write that into equations. I
have no idea how he knew it would work. But it did.

"I've lost count of the number of people who have refused to believe what happened. I no longer "...there are two
talk about it. It's no fun being laughed at and ridiculed. But I've described it exactly as it secrets to making the
occurred. One day someone will build the disk just as we did and they'll have the same alien saucers work.
One is their advanced
experience. All his blueprints still exist. Nowadays, it would all be done with digital and solid
engineering, and the
state circuitry - no moving parts would be necessary. other is their mental
ability."
"I've heard that the aliens use the same principle to operate their craft. Their physics seems to
work in harness with their consciousness. The craft amplifies the power of their minds. Their craft won't operate
without the pilots. I've heard that's why we can't operate their craft – or, at any rate, we can't operate them the way
they do. We're just not adept enough mentally and spiritually. So there are two secrets to making the saucers work.
One is the advanced engineering, and the other is the mental and spiritual ability. We may have duplicated some of
the first, but we may be a long way from the second yet."

Bill Ryan left Ralph having promised to get the information into the hands of
someone who could understand and then duplicate the dramatic experiments
conducted by Carr and his team. Ralph and Bill Ryan had agreed to work together
to see the project through to its reality. Shortly afterwards, Ralph went into hospital
for a routine knee replacement operation. He accidentally received the wrong
treatment, and nearly died three times. At the time of writing (July 2006) he has
just recently emerged, very frail, from intensive care - but is determined to tell his
story. Prior to that he had enjoyed perfect health for 71 years.

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 Ralph Ring with Bill Ryan
This is exactly what Project Camelot is for.

_____________________________

Material about Otis Carr currently in the public

domain:
According to Otis Carr, "Any vehicle accelerated to an axis
rotation relative to its attractive inertial mass, immediately
becomes activated by free-space-energy and acts as an
independent force... We have shown that a charged body,
accelerated to an axis rotation relative to this attractive
inertial mass, indicates polarity in a given direction.

"The dip-needle points, say, up toward the top of the body.

But mount this while rotating body, with its spindle, on
another platform and rotate this platform on a spindle, then
if the counter-rotation is greater than the inertial forward
rotation of the body, a dip-needle on the second platform
will point down while the first dip-needle points up,
indicating complete relativity of polarity. When the exact
counter-rotation matches the forward rotation the body
loses its polarity entirely and immediately becomes
activated by free-energy (tensor stresses in space) and acts
as an independent force... The above-described assembly of
counter-rotating charged masses becomes weightless and
will escape the immediate attraction of gravitational forces."

Carr's engine had only two moving parts – like two spinning
tops on top of one another, each spinning in a different
direction. Carr stated that "when counter-rotation matches
forward rotation, a body loses its polarity... and creates a

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 kind of independent force. This causes the counter-rotating mass to escape the full effect of gravitational
influence."

Similar results, pertaining to the apparent antigravitic properties of rotating objects, have been shown by a
variety of researchers – most notably, the eminent British engineer Professor Eric Laithwaite, who
demonstrated an apparent loss of weight in a sealed system containing an arrangement of spinning
gyroscopes and called upon the scientific community to research the phenomenon. Intriguingly, the "Jell-o"
description of the altered state of solid metal, attained under specific and unusual conditions, has also been
reported by the researcher John Hutchison, and is part of the lore of The Philadephia Experiment.

According to Carr, his vehicle was actually finished in 1947, but at the time he was unable to generate any
interest in it. Carr stated that the core of his space ship would be a huge battery which would spin at the
velocity of the external craft and which would be recharged by its own motion. Carr went on to declare that
such a battery, built to any size, could be designed to power the largest electric generating plant, operate
an automobile, heat a house or power any conceivable machine or device.

On April 15, 1959 a launch event was held in Oklahoma City with
hundreds of people invited, having been told that a prototype disk would
rise 400 to 600 feet off the ground from a gravel pit. After several hours
delay, an announcement was made that the launch was being postponed
due to a badly engineered bearing. However, it subsequently emerged
that Carr had been admitted into hospital for eight days with a lung
hemorrhage, in addition to which, in a preliminary pre-flight test, the
accumulator had developed a leak which had sprayed mercury over the
inside mechanism.

Carr's claims began to attract the attention of the US Government in the

late 1950s. Major Wayne Aho, a former Army Combat Intelligence Officer
during World War II, announced that he would take the craft to the moon
on December 7, 1959, that the trip would take 5 hours, and that he
would remain in orbit for 7 days before returning. The 45 diameter craft
he was to use weighed 30 tons and "was powered by the Utron engine".

On June 2, 1960, Carr told an audience of 300 people that it was a "treacherous misstatement of fact to
say or infer that we [OTC Enterprises] are coming to California to raise money in stock sales." The U.S.
Securities and Exchange Commission had placed an injunction against Carr, ordering him to cease selling

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 unregistered stock. Negative publicity began to appear in various publications, and there were hints of
impropriety, though never with any proof. The press began to turn against him.

In January, 1961 the Attorney General of New York, Louis J. Lefkowitz, stated that Carr had swindled
$50,000, and later that year True Magazine labeled him a hoaxer. By then, his laboratory had been raided
and destroyed, and the group of engineers had been ordered to disband and cease contact with one
another. It is not known what became either of Carr himself or the craft... but they never flew again. Carr
is reported to have suffered from ill-health, a broken man. He passed away in Gardnerville, Nevada, in
2005.

_____________________________

The design of the OTC X-1:

Please click on each image to view it in high resolution.

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 _____________________________

Interview: "Long John" Nebel (WOR Radio, NY) with Otis Carr and Norman Colton (29 October,
1957):
LJ ("Long John" Nebel): According to the schedule here the delivered price payable in full on delivery, with
no prior commitments required, and including all poolings, and other overhead is 20 million dollars.
Additional identical units are on the same schedule for 4 million dollars each. That's a lot of money! My
name is Long John and we call this "the Party Line".

I imagine you wonder what I'm talking about for 20 million dollars. Well, I've had a few sponsors and we've
sold a few things, but I don't have O.T.C. Enterprises Inc. of Baltimore, Maryland as sponsor but they do
have something to sell. Mainly, a circular foil spacecraft that is available for 20 million dollars. We have
talked about flying saucers on the program many times. But tonight it appears to me we have two very
solid citizens who represent O.T.C. Enterprises and according to all of the brochures, all of the booklets,
everything we have in front of us and believe me we have a stack of things in front of us, including
miniature working models, and with all of this material. I'm led to believe these men and believe that there
is something to flying saucers.

And the men that I'm referring to are Otis. T. Carr,

President and Norman Evans Colton, Director of Sales
Engineering. These gentlemen are associated with
O.T.C. Enterprises, and we'll be talking with them
tonight about the possibility of making a craft that can
go to Venus, that can go to the Moon, that can go to
Mars, that costs 20 million dollars. And after we have
the first one the rest of them won't cost too much,
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 about 4 million dollars each. We have with us this
morning Ben I. and Mel Saloney. They will be doing a
lot of talking with a lot of people and I hope that you
might call some of your friends and neighbors and tell
them that if they are interested in flying saucers, this is
one night that they should be with us.

Mr. Carr, some time ago one of our listeners sent me a

brochure that was published by O.T.C. Enterprises. It's
a very beautiful brochure; it's certainly a very inspiring
one, and when I read this offer about a spacecraft that
would be made available for 20 million dollars, I nearly
flipped and I mentioned it on the air, and evidently
somebody contacted your Director of Sales
Engineering, Mr. Colton and he contacted us and that's
why you're here this morning.
Oklahoma County attorney William Berry (left), Otis T. Carr
Before we talk about the particular space craft that you (center), and Hubert Gibson, Carr's attorney (right)
intend to manufacture, I would like to ask you a couple
of questions. One; Do you believe in the possibility of flying saucers coming to this planet, the planet
Earth, from other planets?

OTC (Otis T. Carr): We believe that there are unidentified electrified objects in the air. We have seen three
on three separate occasions.

LJ: Do you say you've seen three, Mr. Carr? Did you see them in the air? Were they hovering above a
particular location?

OTC: In the air, they were going at great velocity and they were definitely electrified because we have been
working on the same principle for many years and we recognize what we saw.

LJ: Well when you say electrified, what other type, if we may use the word saucers this morning because
many of our listeners understand that, what other type of saucers could there be other than electrified,
could there be gas driven or something, Sir?

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 OTC: There could be if we followed principles now known within our atmosphere. There are many manners
in which a circular craft could be used, such as the helo principal and jets on the area close to the foil, the
leading edge. But in the incidents of the three different ones which we saw in 1951 and 1952 they were
definitely electrical and they were very close to what we had already designed.

LJ: Did you say the 'Helo' system?

OTC: That's right. Well any system of circular rotation that can use a motive power such as jet propulsion
would make an airborne craft.

LJ: In what way is your invention different from the unidentified flying objects which you have seen?

OTC: We do not know, naturally not having been able to examine the objects we saw due to the great
velocity, we can't say with certainty that they are similar to ours, but the principle we feel is the same. Our
design utilizes gravity, electromagnetism, and electromotive force and a relative field to get its functional
operation.

LJ: I haven't understood a single word of your last sentence. Without getting at all technical could you sort
of make it a little bit easier?

OTC: We use this statement that we use an electrified sender. It's a central power core. Now this is what
we call an 'accumulator.' In a vernacular sense, it is a factory. It is a storage cell, an accumulation of
storage cells which provide an electromotive force in the same manner that any known battery produces an
electromotive force.

LJ: Is that what you are holding in your hand there?

OTC: That's right.

LJ: Can you describe it?

OTC: This is a dimensional object. It was designed with

the dimensions of space itself. We say it is truly the
geometric form of space, because it is completely
round and completely square. Now in this surface they
are all round but when we show it this way the
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 surfaces are square. It has been proven in scientific
laboratories that the very smallest unit of mass matter
ever photographed in the electron microscope are
square in shape. This has only been found out in the
last couple of months. We have known it for years and
have applied this principle into an electrified system,
which is the power core of our space vehicle. Now what
makes this different and unique and novel from a
battery is the fact that this is a piece of moving
machinery that rotates. Our average storage battery is
an inanimate object set in an inertial spot and then the
electromotive force is conducted by wires from this
battery to animate some object.

LJ: Let me interrupt a moment, I'll try to describe it

further. Well, it looks like two ice cream cones put
together at the wide ends, but the angle is a lot wider
than that of the ice cream cones. There are a series of
Wayne Aho (left), and Otis T. Carr (second from left). ridges that look like gears would fit in. Is that correct?
The two men on the right are unknown.

OTC: No, those are in a sense 'turbines principles'. They are 'reactive channels'. And where there is
atmosphere a flow of air there aids rotation.

LJ: Well then, is this one of the components of the drive, this is the battery?

OTC: This is the central power core.

LJ: This generates electricity?

OTC: This is right. This is a storage cell for electrical energy. In operation it generates electricity at the
same time it puts out electromotive force. This is the central power system for our space craft.

LJ: I can tell this, that it opened up and it appears to be hollowed out on the inside, much, I would
say....well it's circular, the inside, when the two parts are put one on top of the other and they fit into
place, the cavity inside is circular.

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 OTC: It is a sphere, yes. And each unit is a hemisphere. We call the center of this, this large dimension the
equator and of course it contracts and expands to a point on each side. It's the union of two conical
sections, that is what it is. Two right angle sections, and we say it is the dimensions of space and we have
shown how this comes about.

LJ: This is Tuesday morning October 29th, 1957....Here is a paragraph that you sent copies of your
brochure outlining your system of propulsion that you have developed to President Eisenhower and the
Cabinet and the Atomic Energy Commission. Have you received an answer from them?

OTC: There was recognition of receiving the material.

LJ: Beyond that did they give any value judgment on what you had to contribute?

OTC: No, we have not received any value judgment.

LJ: Don't you think that is a little odd?

OTC: Yes, I do.

LJ: Is there any way that you can explain it?

OTC: I have my own ideas about this. Of course no way to substantiate such ideas. To give my own
personal opinion, we have a truly safe vehicle which is not expendable, it does not burn up its energy in a
few seconds, it carries the energy with it, it can leave the earth's atmosphere and return man, it also can
be used within the atmosphere. It can make a trip as easily as other aerial transportation systems from
here to Baltimore or from here to the moon. Now it is inexpensive, it certainly doesn't cost as much as the
systems of the expanding rocket. The fueling is much less expensive and whether or not our offer is
entering into an economic picture that is not feasible at this time, we don't know. This is one of our
opinions.

Ben: Mr. Carr. I've been glancing at the literature that you provided us with. I've been going over it and
there is a mathematical formula that crops up here that intrigues me, minus zero divided by plus zero
equals zero. The first time I ever saw a minus zero is in a mathematical equation in the work of Einstein. I
wonder if you can tell me more about it and how you stumbled upon this idea.

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 OTC: The equation is brought about by the shape of
our Utron electrical accumulator, this is the name given
to our central power system. In our operation of
working models and in checking out experiments, we
had to find the formula that fit the reason for the
action and reaction we were getting. So in exploring
nature and studying the great inspirational work of Dr.
Einstein on relativity, we came upon this formula of
linear correlation. And when we study linear correlation
in geometric form, we have to have a starting point and this is the point. And from there it expands
through the cross and through the circle. And the mathematics, the only way we can express it, is in the
symbolism of zero X (or 0x) and this formula brings us to that. We claim that this is the true unified field
theory in physical practice.

Ben: The thing I wonder about....is how you were led to the concept of a minus 0.

OTC: In a further study of Dr. Einstein's great inspirational work and we corresponded with him and we had
the great good fortune of being advised by him at one time, we learned that all measurements of time and
space had to be considered in relationship to the observer and therefore there never was a fixed equation,
due to the observer being an attempt, as I understand it, the observer himself being somewhat the minus
factor and therefore you can't have any fixed quantity of any number. Now in physical form, this is
something else again. We worked for a considerable time with and had many conferences with the great
Nikola Tesla and his evaluation of the sine wave and electrical principles and the true value of alternating
current and hydro-electric systems were developed by the great genius of this man. Further inspirations
came to us and finally from this knowledge and continuing to seek we found this formula.

Ben: Did you find this formula, Mr. Carr?

OTC: I found it with the assistance of Mr. Colton in the evaluation. Mr. Colton researches very heavily in all
the work that I do and we collaborate very closely. Also Mr. Shea collaborates with me in research.

LJ: Mr. Carr, when was O.T.C. incorporated?

OTC: ...1955.

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 LJ: And how long prior to the year 1955 were you associated with Mr. Shea and Mr. Colton?

OTC: Not before that, they have come with me since then.

LJ: Were you interested in this before 1955?

OTC: We started, I use the editorial 'we', this development in 1937. Our investigations began in 1937. We
were actively making models in 1938. In 1942 we had come up with the basic principles.

LJ: In other words, 18 years prior to this year you had in your mind that possibly some type of craft could
be developed that you could go into space with? Is that right?

OTC: This is true.

LJ: Do you hope with this craft, if you are able to manufacture it, that you can go to other planets with it?

OTC: Escaping from the immediate gravity pull of the earth plus the heavy atmosphere of the earth
enables us, just as our satellites are doing now, to join a universal free energy system. They have a
velocity now of 18,000 miles per hour, more or less, without any expenditure of energy whatsoever. Now
any energy attached to this would immediately throw them into a higher velocity orbit which would expand
them further into space...This is extremely easy to do. We feel that our craft will gradually escape and
possibly escape the atmosphere of the earth and then we can handle velocities almost unimaginable in
reaching other gravity systems and the moon should not be more than five hours away.

LJ: Five hours away from Baltimore, Maryland.

OTC: That's right.

LJ: How many people can you have in this craft?

OTC: The one we have on the design board which is 45 feet in diameter, the cabin would accommodate
three to be comfortable.

LJ: And with type of equipment will you have on board of this craft?

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 OTC: On this craft, insofar as the individuals are concerned, can travel the same as in a pressurized
airliner. We don't have the problem of a heat shield.

LJ: What about high velocity?

OTC: We don't have a problem of thermal barriers because the electro-magnetic system sets up a
protective shield in our craft which enables us to overcome this barrier without any discomfort to the
occupants inside the craft. And we can very slowly rise, and once we are outside the atmosphere, we can
accelerate to tremendous velocities up to the speed of light itself.

LJ: I am greatly interested though in the method of landing this craft if you were able to get to the moon.
Let's forget the moon a minute, if you get the craft up from this planet from the airport to Baltimore, how
would it land sir?

OTC: Back in Baltimore?

LJ: Yes.

OTC: Very simply, we can fly at a very slow velocity of 100/ft. per minute or less and we can sit down as
gently as a feather because part of the operation of our craft has joined universal systems. This is a
relative velocity of the attractive inertial mass, it becomes weightless as regards this inertial attraction.
Individually, it is not weightless, it has the same weight as before, but when it reaches the relative location
it becomes an independent system just as a planet is an independent system.

LJ: Is there any gravitational pull at this point sir?

OTC: None whatsoever.

LJ: What happens to the occupants of the space craft?

OTC: They are perfectly comfortable.

LJ: I mean are their heads on the ceiling?

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 OTC: Not at all. They will have the same feeling of pressure or weight that they have right now because we
will maintain as near as possible the atmospheric pressure of the earth at sea level inside the craft.

LJ: This is rather technical for me, Mr. Carr, so please accept my apologies for being rather stupid and
ignorant in my line of questioning. I am under the impression that the only reason I'm able to sit in this
chair, is because of gravitational pull.

OTC: We have this at around 14 pounds per square inch within our atmosphere. We have been able to be
sealed off away from such a condition and thus artificially with atmospheric pressure the pressure in the
cabin is maintained. We have it very well in submarines. The same may be used in our craft.

LJ: In other words, under sea, where a submarine may be, there is no gravitational pull, is that what
you're saying?

OTC: There is a gravitational pull at all times but we're speaking about the atmosphere of the particular
occupants inside a sealed unit.

LJ: Is that necessary to keep occupants in the position they desire.

OTC: Absolutely, because in a vacuum they are at the mercy of any velocity.

LJ: What would happen, sir, if there was some kind of instrument that you could turn on and eliminate the
gravitation pull that was in this room?

OTC: You would in a sense become very buoyant and this is not in itself a novelty but it certainly does not
have any disastrous effects on humanity.

LJ: Would I remain in this position?

OTC: You could, but any movement could move you out of it.

LJ: Would objects, the mike, remain in position?

OTC: Until they were brought into any other movement. Any movement would make them buoyant
themselves.

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 LJ: I have a lead pencil, if I hold it in the air and release my fingers, it would fall because of gravitational
pull.

OTC: This is true.

LJ: If we had this other condition which you so aptly described a moment ago, if I released my fingers
would the pencil remain in midair?

OTC: This is true, it would stay there.

LJ: I believe what you are saying is that you'd be creating an artificial gravitational field within the body of
the space craft and yet there would not be any gravity on the outside?

OTC: Exactly correct.

LJ: And this is done by the battery which I attempted to describe, spinning around and producing its own
gravitational influence?

OTC: Yes, this is the beginning of an answer to your

question: we have capacitor plates and electro-
magnets as a part of this system. Now this is counter-
rotating, the electro-magnets rotate in one direction
and the accumulator, the batteries rotate in another.
The capacitor plates rotate in conjunction with the
battery so that we have a clockwise and counter
clockwise rotation. Now the third system is the cabin
that maintains the crew. This does not rotate, it is fixed
due to the fact the two bodies are rotating clockwise
and counter clockwise. Therefore the system causes
the craft to escape from the gravity pull. The craft itself due to this system still has internal gravity because
it still has the same weight that it had in the beginning.

LJ: What charges this battery?

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 OTC: This starts out electrochemically the same as other batteries, but we do have a regenerating system
that is very unique. We are able here, the first time to our knowledge, to use atmospheric electricity as a
recharging system. This is done as a part of operational principal of the craft.

LJ: You say you use atmospheric electricity. What happens when you use the atmospheric and there isn't
any atmosphere?

OTC: We have electrochemical systems to provide us with all the energy that we need and have a
regenerating system in the manner of a regenerative coil that recharges this battery, in the same manner
that the storage battery in the automobile is recharged now, by a generator.

LJ: What you have done is made the first perpetual motion machine.

OTC: There is nothing perpetual about our machine. The energies which cause it to operate are perpetual.
You cannot destroy matter, you cannot destroy energy. Molecular flow is perpetual and has been proven in
the laboratory. It has been proven that electricity itself is immortal. When we take away resistance we can
set up a spark of electricity and it will continue to operate, therefore we have perpetual energy. No
machine that we can conceive of made by man would be perpetual, but it is free energy. It's self energizing
and as long as all parts function and do not wear out this is truly a self energizing machine.

Ben: About this formula, were you using conventional algebraic methods?

OTC: No, we weren't, partially conventional, but we were joining actual space forms. We arrived at
satisfactory equations for ourselves which can be demonstrated.

Ben: Are the physical laws upon which your invention works, are they expressible in mathematical terms?

OTC: Possibly, but I wouldn't say that I'm qualified. We're satisfied with this formula.

Ben: Well, it's like saying plus 4 divided by minus 4 equals 4.

OTC: Sometimes these solutions are not always what they appear. As we know, in synergy, we know one
plus one equals three.

Ben: One plus one equals three? How?

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 OTC: Because two conditions always produce a third.

Ben: The third condition is 2 isn't it?

OTC: Not necessarily...

Ben: Could you go over these conditions?

OTC: If one condition operates one way and another operates another way, and when they join you have
another condition and their sum is 3.

Ben: Well that's a little bit over my head, I've been looking at this prototype you have here and I noticed a
wooden frame or scaffolding, you have a larger model of.....that you have in it a turbine and around it is a
wooden ring and it seems to be filled with electromagnets.

OTC: That's right, this is a wood model of the operational model. What we have here is the cones - our
Utron electric accumulator - that is the power system. This system activates the electromagnets and in
turn activates...

Ben: Does the system - the thing inside - activate the electro-magnets on the outside?

OTC: This is true. We do this by contacting this lead wire from the positive and negative poles of these
batteries to the electro-magnets and then we have circuit breakers from these electro-magnets and we
have counter-rotation. These electro-magnets will rotate counter clockwise while the internal area is
rotating clockwise.

Ben: Are the spools of wire on the model itself, are they magnetized also?

OTC: The coils of wire inside the ring are regenerative coils, they are electro-motive force coils and they
assist the regenerating of the battery. Because they are loops of wire brought through a magnetic field
which sets up an electro-motive force. These others are capacitor plates and these are also activated by
the central power core; but these plates, which can accept a very high charge in neutral conductance also
through the process of ionization utilize atmospheric electricity.

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 Ben: I mean if you turn that thing... I don't see how you can get a square.

OTC: Dimensionally it is, it is square in these dimensions and when this rotation starts and builds up to a
certain velocity, this form is very important because we have the total equation of action and reaction. Now
this is done by a system of coil winding wherein we start at a point, expand to an equator, continue our
winding down to a point. With this physical expansion and contraction, is an electromagnetic field. Where
gravity enters the picture in the form of this relative rotation. When the relative rotation reaches the
inertial effective mass, it's a matter of dimension. So that if the earth as we say is 8,000 miles in diameter,
we know its fixed rotation is 1 in 24 hrs. If we were 1 mile in diameter its rotation would be 8,000 in 24
hrs. And by the same system, our 45 foot craft would have a rotation of 580 rpms a minute and when it
reaches this rotation it is totally independent of its inertial attractive mass, in an electro-magnetic field.

Ben: 580 rpms a minute, that's not very fast is it?

OTC: Well, if you say a merry-go-round going 580 rpms a minute that would be quite fast.

Ben: If your models get up to 580 rpms a minute, will they take off?

OTC: This model was spun at 40,000 rpms a minute and when it did it set a pressure pattern of 1,000
tons, the horsepower reading was a little over 700. Six engineers checked this out. Now the relative
rotation of this model would be about 68,000 rpms a minute and when it reaches this rotation, it would
immediately take off.

LJ: Sam Vanderburt is the photographer who took pictures here this morning. They will appear in edition of
Argosy Magazine dated April, 1958.

LJ: A question from a telegram - Would the time factor be involved with this craft?

OTC: In our solar system, the time factor would be involved, yes. We evaluate time on the velocity of light
and in certain systems, if we exceed the velocity of light, unquestionably the time would slow up.

Ben: Your craft can exceed the velocity of light?

OTC: We don't say this, I say in other systems.

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 Ben: I thought nothing could do this, I thought it was a constant factor, one of Einstein's factors.

OTC: Possibly in our system, but not necessarily true in other systems.

Ben: Anything approaching the speed of light becomes pure energy.

OTC: Pure energy, but in other systems it could change.

Ben: What other systems?

OTC: Other solar systems, we are completely controlled by our system and here the velocity of light is our
yardstick and our pattern and our craft is designed around this...

Ben: You just don't upset one of the basic principles of the universe.

Mel Salomey: Doesn't Einstein say any measurement is relative?

Ben: Except this one, it's the first axiom.

Mel: What is an axiom?

Ben: Self-evident truth.

Mel: Thank you. Wasn't Einstein theorizing, wasn't he assuming?

OTC: However we have to get back to what has been accomplished. We have invented an electrified
system which makes it possible for a propulsion system which put into operation can carry human beings,
with a fuel system which is not expendable and take them into space and bring them back and return in
this craft. If I had the tools now, and those tools are available in large plants. If those tools were available
to me we could have this craft on the moon in six months from this date.

Q: Mr. Carr, on this sheet I have in front of me, the sheet headed, Performance Characteristics and Delivery
Terms for the OTC-X1 circular foil space craft. I noticed the paragraph headed 'physical components.'
Safety under normal conditions would be anticipated in flight. It would be within 1,000 miles away from
earth. Now maybe I am not reading this correctly. Sir, but as I read this you are saying that at the present

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 time you feel that the OTC-X1 craft could go a distance
of 1,000 miles away from earth and yet a few minutes
ago you told us you could go to the moon in 5 hours.

OTC: That is true, the same craft, after all this is a

contract form and we have not been to the moon. We
are going to enjoy looking at the earth 1,000 miles out
and I think that would be satisfactory if we make a
safe return.

Q: From a thousand miles?

OTC: 1,000 miles was picked as an arbitrary figure for

demonstration purposes only. Before we delivered the craft we would take the crew a distance of 1,000
miles.

Q: Before you delivered to the purchaser?

OTC: That's right.

Q: Then let me ask you Mr. Colton, how long would it take you to go 1,000 miles and return provided you
don't hover around 1,000 miles away from the earth?

Colton: It could be done in a matter of minutes, probably because of the takeoff and landing practicalities,
it could be done comfortably in the space of one hour.

Q: Comfortably?

Colton: So as to avoid awkward velocities and any discomforts.

Q: In other words the possibility of going to the moon in five hours is a dream at the moment, right?

Colton: No, I wouldn't say it's a dream...

Q: Well, if it takes you an hour to go 1,000 miles away from earth it should take you a little longer than 5

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 to go to the moon unless you've got an indirect route that will save a little time.

Colton: If you think of it in terms of a passenger train leaving a station and arriving at another station or
an aircraft traveling between cities. This proportion and the amount of time it takes for takeoff and landing,
the distance of approximately 50 miles in a heavy atmosphere would be traveled very slowly. Once out of
that atmosphere as Mr. Carr said almost any type of speed is possible up to and approaching the speed of
light. You couldn't approach any such speed because you could reach 1,000 miles in the wink of an eye.
That's why I say the figures are rounded off and arbitrarily selected for discussion and preparing the
contract proposal.

Q: Mr. Colton, 20 million dollars sounds like a lot of money if you purchased an amount of jellybeans but it
doesn't sound like a lot of money to me if you could produce the craft you propose. Do you have any idea
in your mind why some big aeronautical concerns, Lockheed, etc.; I don't know all of them, why it is that
they haven't taken advantage of this opportunity to invest. It's quite possible it wouldn't cost them 20
million dollars because they already have so much equipment available to them.

Colton: Up to the present time we haven't approached them directly with an offer.

Q: You were incorporated in 1955 and I imagine you have made an effort to get some money to promote
your product.

Colton: An offer we made was that the OTC-X1 craft will be parked in any specified area in the Continental
US and go one or more times outside the earth's atmosphere and land within a distance of the Pentagon
building in Washington or any other location best suited for public observation.

Q: What are these coils? To describe this the best I can, imagine if you will a circle about 16-18 inches in
diameter. Two circles that form a sort of a...in other words 1 circle fits over another circle and from the top
of the circle and coming down from off the circle are two cones, in other words one is up like a round
pyramid, the other an inverted round pyramid. There are a number of what appears to be copper wound
coils around the edge of it. If you looked at it head on it would look like an old fashioned airplane engine
more or less. And then there's sort of a framework on top and underneath there's sort of braces. That's the
general idea, I noticed this, these cones placed mouth to mouth with some coils, the coils on the edge of
this thing, it revolved within this structure. A tough thing to describe.

Q: What is this over here, Mr. Colton?

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 Colton: This is a paper mockup to show the counter rotation principle and its outside circular section that
Roy is describing looking at the other mockup. It contains the electrified horseshoe magnets. This would
rotate in one direction counter clockwise while the center section with the electron accumulator would,
which he described as 2 inverted cones mouth to mouth, would rotate clockwise in the other direction.

Q: Would these coils in the outer rim...?

Colton: Rotate counter clockwise, correct.

Q: What is the material in the actual space craft?

Colton: A number of materials would be used.

Q: Was the outer shell possibly aluminum, sir?

Colton: Possibly aluminum, possibly fiberglass. Certainly not any material or materials or products not
known to use or easily available.

Q: When you say 580 rpms do you mean the outer rim is rotating in 1 direction 580 rpms and the inner
rotating in the other direction at the same speed, giving a total rotation, one relative to the other of 1160
rpms?

Colton: Exactly, although I don't know if 1160 has any bearing on it or not.

Q: Well, it would be twice the rotation in reference to the earth.

Colton: We're not giving it for a certain rotation for the sake of rotation but for the sake of relativity to the
attractive mass. The earth at 8,000 miles diameter rotating once in 24 hours is relatively equal to a 45 foot
craft rotating at 580 and 580 would calculate to be the approximate rotational speed of an automobile tire
on a car moving at about 25-30 miles per hour.

LJ: I'll try to describe a description as seen from the outside. I was attempting to describe the inside of the
mechanism which is very difficult but I think I could describe it this way if I may. Imagine taking a couple
of loud speaker cones and putting them mouth to mouth. Now that seems to be the body of the craft as

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 you would see it in flight or well let's say landing. Now
around it is an independent ring...so that the mouth to
mouth speaker cones revolve inside the ring and on its
axis.

Q: It looks like a flying saucer. It sort of reminds me of

a gyroscope...

LJ: Have you described the basic principle of the thing?

Colton: Yes, Mr. Carr described the basic principle and

the relationship of electricity and electro-magnetism.

LJ: Could a small craft be made to take off?

OTC: We plan to build a prototype model as a

demonstration device. Now I would like to state certain
models have been built by me and tested. Each one
has been airborne. One was lost entirely in space. We
had a control system and this one didn't function. This
has already been done.

LJ: Years ago a man sold me two pieces of balsa wood,

two cross pieces, and a rubber band. It would take off
and go up very nicely and gently descend to the
ground. It was not surprising to me that a thing like
this is quite feasible. As a matter of fact he had a
fantastic flying platform. He said it would one day be a way of flying instead of a prop in the front. OK now,
how does it differ from this particular flying saucer? That's what it really is, in principle, in motivation. The
flying platforms I believe are a combination of a propeller and a jet. Thus directing motion downwards. This
does not have anything to do with this system?

Q: None whatsoever. As we calculated, the speed of the circumference was 1263 miles per hour. It gets
kind of warm at that, doesn't it?

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 OTC: No, it won't because it has its own protection field which is its electro-magnetic actuation. We
described it as a self contained unit the same as an orange. It contains its juice within its skin and
maintains its own circulatory system, like mammals and animals, etc. This ionization of the capacitor plates
sets up a glow brilliantly with a very soft luminescent light.

LJ: What color?

OTC: It would be in the nature of the blue green or very similar to the electric arc you see in welding. This
is the field we are testing, you do not have a heat barrier in forward velocity at all. This electro-magnetic
field is being tested out now in conventional aircraft and proved very efficient. We have known that there is
something a long time in our particular operation. We found out by actual physical tests.

LJ: Have you patented this?

OTC: We have patent applications in preparation and on file.

LJ: I personally am very reluctant to try to argue with you about this device because it looks like a very
definite look into the future. Do you think that there are flying saucers from other planets?

OTC: These are electrified unidentified flying objects. We have seen these as mentioned earlier on this
program and we were interested inasmuch as we were already building models and tested them out by the
time we had these observations. Now, it is not up to me to conjecture whether or not they are from other
planets, but the evidence is so because we certainly would not have to spend 355 million dollars to build a
rocket if we had such a system, which we propose to make possible. We have the system ourselves. If the
system is in operation already, something is very wrong to put this money expense on an expendable
rocket. 55 million dollars is no cost at all to test out a rocket that only gets a few feet off the ground.

Q: Well, what do you think about the principle of rockets under certain conditions? Would you suppose you
could put rockets toward the edges of the cones and have the ring spin by rocket propulsion?

OTC: We don't need it. We have a tremendous spin here. An electric motor operates the same way. You set
up an electromotive force inside a magnetic field and you get rotation. So what we actually have here is an
improved electrical motor which in itself is a circular device, and we say we make energy out of the air,
from another dimension.

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 To clear your analogy up also, we would like to demonstrate the fact that this earth itself is literally a space
craft demonstrating what we're talking about; it's rotating and orbiting at a certain constant speed with a
magnetic field and it is in itself a spacecraft.

Q: Mr. Colton, we assume the moon has a gravitational field. How does it make a gravitational field and yet
it does not rotate on its axis.

Colton: It does not rotate on its axis?

Q: No, the moon does not rotate on its axis.

Ben: Sure it does, 1 rotation for 1 revolution.

Q: How long does it take?

Ben: 28 days.

Q: And the earth takes one day.

OTC: And that's how engineers and scientists have

evaluated the velocity of the craft we call the earth by
the orbit of it. Upon the pattern already set up, by the
amount of time it takes the moon to rotate once
around the earth from the center of the earth's core:
28 days. The distance being 245,000 miles. It is easy
to calculate.

Q: These cones seem to revolve over intricately wound

copper coils. Do you supply any motor power to this?

OTC: All energy comes from these two cones [Utron]. This in vernacular is a battery. The big novelty is that
we have put a battery in motion. We have designed it within the accepted knowledge of total dimensions of
space-matter and we have activated it electrochemically [electrolyte in the hollow center] and used the
force through chemical activation to activate the entire craft, after which we have motion as the feature of
this accumulator.

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 Ben: Mr. Osgood's telegram brought up a very important and perhaps crucial point, mainly, James Clerk
Maxwell demonstrated that light is an electromagnetic radiation, also verified by Hertz who laid the
foundation for modern radio. Now the speed of electromagnetic radiation such as radio waves also travels
186,000 miles per second. In other words, light and all forms of electromagnetic radiation travel at the
speed of 186,000 miles per second. Now if it were possible for your craft to travel faster than the speed of
light, it could, therefore, travel faster than the speed of electromagnetic radiation. So once it exceeded
186,000 miles per second, you wouldn't be gaining all this energy from this electromagnetic radiation
you're generating and wouldn't you fall rapidly down?

OTC: There is a continuous falling in space which in itself can bring velocity and can bring you to another
system. We mentioned conjecturally that in other systems, there could be different velocities. We're not
applying them to our craft. We don't identify them wit our craft. Relatively, we could not go faster than the
speed of light unless we were in a system that permitted it. In our solar system, which we have mentioned
now three times, it is designed on known principles. We conjectured about other systems. If we go beyond
the speed of light in other systems the conditions within that system would make it possible for us to have
power.

Roy: Let's assume, Mr. Carr, this vehicle is at rest. What is it that originally overcomes the inertia of this
rotor and starts the rotor moving?

OTC: The electromagnetic force stored in the energy of the Utron electric-accumulator, which in vernacular
is a battery.

Roy: Now the Utron electric accumulator is these cones that are inverted to each other with bases together.
I know of zinc batteries, nickel-cadmium, lead-acid cells. Could you use those?

OTC: We could use any of the kinds you mentioned; what we have here is tremendous power size in
comparison to other batteries; therefore, it's very easy to put 1,000 2-volt cells inside this one unit as you
see it. It has functioned very well. In our 45-foot craft we plant to have 12,000-volt batteries which will
extend an electromotive force which will energize the electromagnets and the capacitor plates. The
generative coils will put back into the batteries in this system the same amount of volts going out until
there is a breakdown of electro-chemicals or wear-out of equipment. But it could last as long as average
storage batteries in automobiles.

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 Roy: In order to start the motor off originally, is it necessary to cause a flow of electricity through one set
of the coils?

OTC: That's true.

Roy: Is there any magnetic force in the other set of coils at this point?

OTC: They individually operate by circuit breakers and the first motion begins to start a repetition. The
same we have in a motor that has the opposite of a commutator, which is an accumulation of contact
points where each coil is energized as the current flows through this coil. Then this starts the motion, the
repetition of this motion brings the whole motor into phase in the same sense our accumulator and
magnets become speeded up and the circuits are made and broken as they rotate.

Roy: Where the inner rotor rotates in one direction and the outer in the other direction. and if the cabin is
located on top of the rotating mechanism, what keeps it from rotating in one direction or the other?

OTC: We have this cabin as the center of the craft and the battery below the cabin and the electromagnets
are the total outside of the circular foil. The shaft of the accumulator goes through the cabin and there is a
bearing. Now, just as this stays stationary when this is rotated, so will the cabin because there are two
rotating forces. You have the clockwise rotation of the accumulator, the capacitor plates, the generative
coils, you have a counter-rotation of the entire circular area of the craft, the larger diameter which houses
the electromagnets; therefore, when you have rotation in both directions, the cabin itself is like a bearing
and extension of the shaft. We've built models and proved this is correct.

Roy: OTC X-I was accomplished?

OTC: Six crafts were airborne, one escaped; we used circuit breakers of various types and fuses burned
through the switch and we lost one craft.

Roy: What was the size?

OTC: The largest and the one lost was 6 feet in diameter.

Roy: You also talk of the Caroto Gravity Motor and you mention it requires no fixed location in which to
function, and you also say a lot of other wonderful things about the possibility for this motor. Is it

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 something else than the spacecraft?

OTC: They are two separate packages. The spacecraft utilizes the electrical accumulator and the gravity
motor uses the energy of the inertial attractive forces. We have learned how to take this energy and key it
to a working shaft and get work power which we call free energy because it is. We don't make any part of
it. Now in the rather vulgar vernacular sense this would have been classified as perpetual motion. It is
nothing of the sort. It's free energy. Now we have learned that all masses that are smaller than the masses
to which they are attracted exert energy. Even this ashtray; if it takes a pound of energy to lift it, then it is
exerting a pound of energy. We have a true gravity motor. Its functional operation is to produce power
continuously without any dissipation of the energy which causes it to operate, and we have built models of
this and they operate and function and we are in the patent procedure with this.

Mel: Back to a question a while ago regarding an analogy of the earth as a spacecraft. Taking another look
at the mock up prototype power package there in front of you. It resembles the solar system itself, and as
a matter of fact one of the statements in the brochure published in 1957, stated it illustrated the geometry
of the universe. It seems that this device miniaturizes and essentially duplicates the motion of bodies in
the solar system. It must have the ability to miniaturize their energy. So in a sense, the bodies in the solar
system, in all time, have maintained their constant motion perpetually in those motions and this is why
people characterize this power package as a perpetual motion machine.

OTC: But we do not make any such claim.

Colton: The Utron has many applications, has many forms, many variation. In one sense you might
describe it as an energized armature or in other words a motor with a self-contained moving battery, also
capable of continuously re-energizing itself. The offer in regards to spacecraft applies to government and
industry alike. We will only make total disclosure demonstration after we have procured a firm order. In
other words, we're not looking for anyone to evaluate our development. Mr. Carr has come a long way in
his research. He doesn't need any risk money from taxpayers or industries for further exploration and
development. We will disclose to anyone who is a purchaser, but not to anyone who comes along for
curiosity.

Mel: What does the word "Utron" mean?

Colton: "Utron" is a coined word, a word Mr. Carr put together: the letter "U" and "tron", U meaning the
direction or shape of motion as applied and used and equated in this accumulator or battery we described -

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 - U is the plane, the geometrical figure that is the portrait of the wave, you might say. The letter U as
described on paper, the two-dimensional, is a portrait on paper of the wave or the wave motion with the
cut field, with the straight line, the pressure energy in the Utron accelerator.

OTC: To me there's no such thing as a completed curve; you only go half way, just like you only go half
way into the woods, then you're coming out. This is the same. A bisection of a total sphere is its exact
curve and one half of it is primarily U-shaped. Because in magnets there are always two poles and one
normal way to show them is in a U-shape, but if it's in a bar magnet, there are still two poles and the
shape is still the same. We can only put a rope one half way around the tree and it's coming back the other
way, and this is true in all wave motion. Now, if you extend this into velocity, this is the pattern in the sine
wave and definitely the electromagnetic wave.

Ben: I see... the vortexian of the wave.

OTC: All motion is relative to all other motion, so this serpentine, spiral state.

Ben: So it's not the form of that motion, the graph and the equation. I'll accept the fact that it's the form
of the Utron motion though.

OTC: Also the form as well in two dimensions is intensified in the geometry of our accumulator.

Q: Why do you refer to this vehicle as a 4th dimensional vehicle?

OTC: Because the geometry of the accumulator is such as the 4th dimension. To me the application of
space and time, a vibratory field and electricity as we know it is a vibratory force in motion. This is
symbolic of it and when it is activated it becomes such. Now this may be a little bit difficult to understand,
but nevertheless the very smallest electronic particles of matter have been shown under the highest type
of electron microscope to be one-dimensional squares. To me this is verification that this is truly a space
dimension because it is the shape of matter. Without matter you couldn't have space.

Q: I'm holding a thing that looks like two loudspeakers in a simplified form, placed mouth to mouth, two
cones mouth to mouth, like two tops together so they have a point at each end and actually like a
thickened flying saucer... Now what is it that comes from that: is it a high voltage?

OTC: The voltage is whatever we wish to make it by design.

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 Q: In other words, then, this is a battery?

OTC: That's right.

Q: The battery then goes through these magnets?

OTC: The battery rotates in this magnetic field. The average armature today in any electrical system is
usually the permeability, iron wound with copper, then through a magnetic field acts as a motor, or it
becomes a generator, depending upon the lead. The great novelty here in the area in which an armature is
normally used, we have a [power unit, and this a battery, and this is a moving power unit.

Q: In other words, you might call this a self-contained power supply, right? How would this generator ---
maybe I'm using the wrong word --- gather additional energy from outside?

OTC: This is due to its circular motion. Electrical forces are motions where they manifest. Now we have
cycles in alternating current; AC gives you 60 cycles per second; we have discovered in our experiments
that there is a space cycle related to electricity, and if we join the cycle we get energy from it.

Q: Mr. Colton, will you try to describe to our listeners how they can draw at home a facsimile of an Utron?

Colton: You can take a pencil and draw four lines to form an open square. When you have a square, draw a
straight line from one point of the square to an opposite point and you'll have two right angle triangles.
Now if you convert the line you've just drawn into a small lip you'll begin to see two inverted cones, the
base of which form a circular equator. While you started with a square, you now have two cones.
Obviously, the base of the cone is a circle or completely round as we describe it, and you have the device
which is described as completely round and completely square, the Utron electric accumulator. The cavity
in the center of these which is a hemisphere when the two cones are put together have a hollow sphere.
This is the cavity which contains the electrolyte which would be used in some of the applications of the
accumulator.

Q: Of what value is the term "completely round and completely square" apart from its obvious
redundancy?

Colton: It is Carr's definition of the geometry or the basic space form or the basic form of all matter large

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 or small relatively as we describe it. It is the definition of the terminal motions of universal energies in
what we call space.

Q: In one of your brochures you make mention of a "photon gun" and you say, "This is primarily a
development that works outside of the earth's atmosphere. We are entering an age of space flight and the
use of solar energy is practically unlimited"... What is a photon gun?

OTC: I am using the word "gun" as a reaction principle instead of as a weapon. Nevertheless, it is a gun
and in fact fires billions of rays of solar energy at right angles to the reception. By placing them through a
certain chamber, we have been able to get a reaction and whenever there is a reaction, we can get power,
we can get force from it. So we feel outside the earth's atmosphere new systems of propulsion even
beyond our own of electromagnetism will make themselves apparent.

The text of this interview was kindly shared by Mike Hughes of Anaheim, California, as reprinted
in ENERGY UNLIMITED around 1983, and though very faded in many spots, was typed up by
Jerry Decker from KeelyNet. Decker's intention was for it to be copied at other sites on the net
for the widest possible audience of interested parties. Project Camelot supports and echoes that
intention here.

_____________________________

Notes (Bill Ryan, Project Camelot)

There is no doubt in our minds that Ralph Ring is 100% genuine. Everyone who has met him and heard his
story in person is in full agreement. However, the events he recounts took place nearly 50 years ago and
there are some engineering details which he has some understandable difficulty in recalling. It must be
emphasized that almost all of the laboratory documentation pertaining to Carr's experimentation was
confiscated by the US Government in 1961.

Since Ralph's recovery from his serious illness, Project Camelot is proud to have now introduced him to a
group of engineers and researchers who are in detailed communication with him and are committed to
replicating the results of Carr's research. Project Camelot pledges to post updates on these developments
as results are obtained. A full video interview with Ralph will be posted here soon.

_____________________________

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 Further information: https://www.keelynet.com/gravity/carr3.htm. Some of the above diagrams and
photographs, from Ralph Ring's private papers, have not been published before. We thank him for placing
them in the public domain.

Click here for a transcript of the video.

____________________________

Support Project Camelot - make a donation: Bill Ryan and Kerry Cassidy

Donations are not tax deductible for U.S. citizens

kerry@projectcamelot.org

Thank you for your help. bill@projectcamelot.org

Your generosity enables us to continue our work.

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